so we won everything but the awards? ;p

reminds me of our debate versus admu a... the "intangibles" being more important than the "tangibles". hahaha.

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we got the awards dude. just not all of them. but that doesn't matter...

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kudos to yourself and to UP Manila, then. 9 out of 10, it was a hopeless battle. In the end, we do what we can, spitting fire all the while. because we knew we were right. and hopefully, passing it on to the younger ones. implanting it in their bellies. the fire, i mean. and wishing them luck.

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...

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Aids, I respect you as a person, but on the following issues we will just have to disagree.

For starters, I don't like being called sneaky and the reason why my team won semis over yours was because we had the benefit of having 5 stupid adjudicators on my side. I worked hard at training to reach where I've been. I don't need sneaky tricks to win. And by the way---it isn't sneaky to point out something as obvious as relativism. Those adjudicators by the way, must be VERY happy at how you called them stupid. I'll send your regards.

I don't like the idea of how you supposedly speak for the Asian community. You carried their hopes, you say. That implies that they have the same values. Answer this then: Why did they make us win? Adjudicators are allowed to make unreasonable, unresponsive, shifty and generally inferior---i.e., sneaky--- teams lose. Where did they go wrong? Unless of course, you claim that all the judges we've had so far are stupid. Or they subscribe to the Ateneo "hegemony." But wait, you claim to carry their hopes! Hmmm. Very consistent. Very diplomatic.

I don't like your idea of what's principled and what's not. If principled debating means stubbornness and an inability to see how the other side truly thinks, then I proudly lack your principles. If principled means debating extremes and expecting other teams to debate this way, then principled debating is an oxymoron. I, at least, debate to look for nuances and understand the truth, not be assigned to one side and pigheadedly stick to it because it's my side. Debates reflect the real world. Given that the real world is really just different shades of grey, then why do you expect debates to be the same way?

I really dislike your position that Ateneo wins (and other schools lose) because of Ateneo's influence. No. Ateneo wins because we work our asses off. It's that simple. We read higher theory. We choose classes that will help our debating. We go beyond the Economist and look for political science journals and other things, anything that could be useful in showing us how the world works. We spend hours at something that will eventually be taken away from us because we'd have graduated. To insinuate that we win because of hegemony and not our hard work---frankly, it's a rather cheap and sour way to resolve your own bitterness.

Finally, I vehemently dislike your position of victimhood. You lost because you weren't good enough. It's happened to Ateneo as well. The reason why it hasn't happened as much to Ateneo as to you is because we never allowed ourselves to be victims. Perhaps victimized by circumstances or different opinions---but we never conducted ourselves like losers, victims, poor little innocent people who got stomped on by the forces of darkness.

I respect that you love debating. I respect the fact that you're a good debater. What I don't respect is your willingness to abandon the definition of principles when it suits you. I know honesty is a part of being principled---so where was it when you evaluated Ateneo the way you did? I won't waste my breath for a response. It just might be too full of your "principles" for me to take.

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Enough said. :P

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Sorry ang dami kong comments na binura. None of them turned out the way I wanted them to.

Congrats to the UP Manila contingent. You guys did brilliantly. Hats off.

But I wanna congratulate you personally. You've been my favorite UPM debater since our Octos at the last San Beda NDC. You deserved to advance to the Quarters ten times more than we did. And you made me even more of a fan when you gave that Semis speech at the Silliman NDC with my favorite porn example Jenna Jameson.

I just think that it was about time that the debate community recognized your talents.

It's no secret that I personally share many (but certainly not all) of your sentiments. But I guess the moral you and I learned at the tournament is: the only way to win is to win clearly. Anything less won't be good enough.

Yes, it's unfair. So my Dad asked, Bakit pa kayo sumasali sa tournaments kung ganyan lang naman pala ang nangyayari?

Because it's debate and that's what makes it worth it. If we (and I say we because this is one of the sentiments we do share) want to preach that there are limits to how low we'll go for a title, then that should be enough for us.

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Thanks nicolo. There are a few people whose opinion I respect to the letter, and you are one of them.

So when you said we lost the semifinal, I knew we were doomed. I trust your judgment that much.

Good luck on your career choice, which is a long and arduous one if you ask me.

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i have to say im disappointed. i've always thought of you guys as a happy go lucky contingent. like CSB but more succesful. i hated myself because prior to beda NDC i lost that happy go lucky part of me and wanted the trophy badly.

john candy in "cool runnings" said it best. if you aren't complete without the trophy you won't be complete with it.

i've personally believed that debate was about continous learning, having fun and self improvement. trophys were simple byproducts. after all, whats a trophy going to do for us 5 years from now? resume fodder? pffft.

so you didn't get the trophy. haven't you made amazing strides in the past few years as an institution? haven't you made yourself an honorable debater who people enjoy going up against and hanging around rounds in after? haven't you learned a lot from competing in tournaments? haven't you made great friends? haven't you had lots of fun?

that's why i hated myself before beda. the goal of my life was a goddam cup you cant even drink beer out of. is that what i want to measure my time in debate with? this is why i can say i had a full debate career with 0 (yes count them 0) silverware to take home. i thought you were the same.

i respect your opinions. i'm not saying you're wrong. i just thought we were more alike. i was wrong.

good luck in your future endeavors

it's not always the destination thats important. often its the journey getting there.

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As I commented to the anonymous person, and also in the last paragraph of the post, no one needs a trophy. Winning is about the tournament itself. :-)

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i agree whole-heartedly aids. it was about time that someone said that the emperor really has no clothes.

while it's granted that mahar, chars, glenn et al are great debaters and i believe that they deserve more or less the better part of what they get, the way they could easily infuse new blood into the debate scene and package him/her as the best thing since viagra is just rididulous. it's not exactly a conspiracy. it's more like ateneo's reputation as an institution getting factored into the adjudication - thus making the actual debate less important.

i somehow agree with mahar though. we cannot fully fault ateneo because the adjudicators are not so sure if they want to chalk up a loss in ateneo's record. the reputation precedes their judgment sometimes - and clearly, this is a phenomenon that exists not only in debate but in other aspects as well.

at least we got that out of the way - THAT FACTOR EXISTS. and that - whether ateneo likes to admit it or not --- makes it a bit unfair (even if they had nothing to do with it).

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i somehow agree with mahar though. we cannot fully fault ateneo because the adjudicators are not so sure if they want to chalk up a loss in ateneo's record. the reputation precedes their judgment sometimes - and clearly, this is a phenomenon that exists not only in debate but in other aspects as well.

- so ang sad naman non... i have nothing against ateneo, the past rounds i've had with them were really okay. but the fact that reputation can precede judgement sometimes is just nakaka-bother(i can't find a better term right now eh)...

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only thing i agree with this entry is that you are bitter. nothing can be clearer than that. bottomline is, this is a competition and there will always be losers.you lost.call it the "ateneo hegemony" or whatever terminology you are so adept at using there in UP, but the fact of the matter is, not only are the ateneo debaters the best around but also the organization behind them.so go be content with the "hear,hears" or whatever "support" you got from the crowd if thats ur definition of winning. and if it would make you guys there in UP feel any better, i would gladly shelve out the cash to buy you a nice, shiny trophy for the "stellar" performance you so confidently brandish. hope u guys do better the next time around.kudos!

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Your powers of discernment are astounding.

Duh! Of course, people are bitter! There are folks who think that how well you debate matters less than what your team name is. If that doesn't make you bitter, I dunno what will.

You can go around in circles trying to figure out if a legitimate claim (or even a perceived legitimacy to the claim) led to bitterness or bitterness led to a malicious claim. But ultimately, finding out who's bitter or not doesn't solve anything. It doesn't go to the substance of the claim and you're just wasting our time and your own.

By the way, for future reference, you "shell" out the cash, not "shelve" out the cash. Don't take this personally; I do this to everybody.

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wow. i guess it was a controversial entry. haha. im only reading the thread now. who is this anonymous commenter. and what's with the snide remarks?

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i think we could narrow the search for mr/ms anonymous' identity to a particular institution.

im officially joining the aids rabe fanboys and fangirls foundation.

haha

i never thought you could be this cool, aids. :P

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Aids,

This is just a matter of different debate philosophies, and we need not fight over this. We in Ateneo feel that crafting a good set-up (what you call madaya) is an art. It involves framing the debate in a strategic way, knowing how opponents will respond to particular prongs, and assessing how to cut off certain powerful lines of argumentation from the opposition. This is a skill in itself, and, for us, doing it is not an ethical issue. Debate may be associated with lofty values, but it is also a game. As with any game, you do what you can within the bounds of the rules to win.

And we are not hypocritical about this. We gush over "strategic set-ups" of teams from other universities. This may offend her (though it's meant to be a compliment), but I respect TL David for running some really brilliant strategic set-ups in her time. Similarly, I thought you guys ran a really good set-up in our round 7 also (not making the debate a debate about the ICC was smart).

"Strategic set-ups" aren't all that bad; they force both opposition and government teams to think of new lines of argumentation which they may not have thought of in a "hard-line" debate.

This is not to say, of course, that Ateneo is against biting the bullet and going hard. If Worlds debating has taught us anything it's that philosophical "first-principles" arguments are some of the most powerful lines of attack. At times, a restrictive set-up, may limit our ability to argue these kinds of arguments. During these times, we do things straight up. Many of us love theory and love philosophy (the reason, I think, why we do well), and we will never turn down a good theoretical debate on issues like feminism, sex, globalization, etc.

Anyway, that's my take on it. I must admit, I was offended by some of your comments, but, at the end of the day, i think this tiff is just about a disagreement re what competitive debating should be like. I've had this discussion with Carl Ng many times and no personal attacks were made. That should be the case here.

Leloy Claudio

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"i think this tiff is just about a disagreement re what competitive debating should be like."

I hope the disagreement stays within this realm. But of course that is what's called wishful thinking.

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upm-dlsu connection? what the fuck?

we hate lasalle!

you hear that TL?

we hate lasalle!

:p
hehehehehe

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hahaha. i did have my suspicions benj. grin.

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TL surely is an expert on what principled debating is. She was a student in the Ateneo after all, before she was, erm, "invited" to leave.....

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so was i? wanna start some shit gutless wonder?

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erm, jarvis gave the admu a - upd a round a 0.5 margin, hardly an easy decision - if you spoke to him

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You must be misinformed. He gave the debate by AT LEAST two points, possibly even more.

He gave aff (in the order of speakers) 77, 79, 80.
He gave neg (same order) 80, 79, 79.

I forget the reply speech scores. Debaters are rarely won in the reply anyway.

That being said, assuming that it was a 0.5 margin, IF YOU EVEN SPOKE TO HIM, he said it was an easy decision for him.

Forget the margin. Forget the scores. He said it himself.

"I was actually surprised when the other adjudicators were taking so long making their decision. The debate was fairly easy for me to decide; it took me no more than 2 minutes."

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guys, let's not get too passionate about this. hope this joke make ppl lighten up=)i saw it on the net and thought it was cute.
__________


UP AND ATENEO sa isang DEBATE.

ANG RULE: BAWAL MAG SALITA.

ADMU: *nag labas ng isang apple*

UP: *nag labas naman ng tinapay*

[PALAKPAKAN MGA TAO]

ADMU: *nagbilang ng isa, using his pointer finger* ISA.

UP: *nag bilang ng dalawa, using his pointer and middle finger* DALAWA.

ADMU: *nag bilang naman ng tatlo, gets nio na kung pano ang tatlo sa kamay diba ang hirap iexplain dito eh..hehe* TATLO.

UP: *nagpakita ng closed fist*

[PALAKPAKAN NANAMAN ANG MGA TAO]

at nanalo ang UP. hehe.

after ng debate...sa panig ng mga atenista...

ADMU: "graabe..ang galing ng taga UP!!!

nung nag labas ako ng MANSANAS meaning "Original Sin", naglabas siya ng TINAPAY meaning "Bread of Life".

nung sinabi ko ISA, meaning "God the Father", aba sinagot ako ng DALAWA, meaning "God the Son".

tapos nung sinagot ko ng TATLO, meaning "God the Holy Spirit", aba! he answered me using his CLOSED FIST meaning "They are all one".

graabe..tinalo ako.ang galing eh."


after ng debate..sa panig naman ng mga taga UP..

UP: "nakaka asar talaga yung atenistang yun!! ang yabang eh! nag labas ba naman ng MANSANAS, edi naglabas ako ng TINAPAY, yun lang baon ko eh.

tapos nung nag bilang siya ng ISA, aba hinahamon ata ako eh!! kaya sinagot ko ng DALAWA!

tapos nung sumagot ng TATLO, aba!! di nako nakapg pigil kaya SUNTUKAN NA LANG *closed fist* aba aba aba."

kaya ayun. parang all along, iba pala yung iniisip nung taga UP at ATENEO. hehehehe.

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infairness na-entertain ako sa joke. =P

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im willing to bet you got more than 500 hundred hits today, aids. well done. well done. haha

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i know! who would have thought that aids could be this cool! ^_^

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come on, estelle, post another comment and mix this comment board even more. hahaha

you gotta love this action!

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i bet you'd like the same kind of traffic in your top100-blog site (i visited and now you're ranked 80th, congrats!) :p why don't you advertise? haha.

aids is probably getting a lot of LJ-emails, notifying him of new comments. only to find out that it's as stupid as the one i'm currently giving. :p

i am so sorry aids if i flood your inbox. but this is just too fun. :p

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I come from a young debate school and I'm just new pa lang sa debate in college. I'm just sad na nag-aaway ang mga schools because of this. Nakakalungkot lang poh. I hope that we can all get along. Kasi di ba. Internationally, we are seen naman poh as one country. Sana we just work together na lang so that Philippines debating will be better. Sana ADMU can also share their skills to other schools like us that are emerging pa lang. We will be stronger siguro if we have peace. Sana we can also be sincerely happy for the victory of others, and sincerely felt sympathy for those who lose. Wala lang... just wanted to share. Sana wag nyo poh ako awayin. Thanks poh.

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haha. I agree in your ideals. A one Philippine Debate Community. Althought the fact of the matter is, that's far from reality as of the moment. It is because the disagreement is not only personal but it is also in terms of principle as we.. I am one with you on your vision of a united debate community, but in order to attain that idealism, i think that we have to undergo this painful process of being frank about the discusting and too-sneaky set-up of the "concerned institution."

I want to give credit to where credit is due. I definitely agree that Ateneo is working hard enough to win. But i don't think that they've earned the right to act the way they do as of the moment. Think of it this way ATENEANS (i'm not referring to all of you, but sadly, most of you are really freakin insolent), why is it that a lot of people hate your guts. It's because, Admit it or not, you have an attitude problem both in a debate and outside a debate. i can't possibly cite all the examples of your so-called attitude problem but i definitely am certain that a lot of people would agree. Take a look at you Team C for example who is very disrespectful as hell in every debate. YOur team C is the epitome of what makes the atenean way of debating cheap. if you are not yet aware, they budger a lot, they shout their interjections, and they do personal attacks against their opponents. Yet they get away with it, under the name of your university.

Frankly, if you want us to respect your Debate Society, and i am referring to the Ateneans, SANS all you achievements, you guys better change your attitude. Even if you get all the trophies in the world, the Biggest trophy that you have to earn is our RESPECT.

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this thread is losing it's steam and drama. so let's start some more para fun siya. it's the home of debaters online.

Pogi Si Joel Dabao.

discuss.

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ingat ka.... anonymous posters really say what's on their mind.

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my goodness, i can't believe i just went through this entire thread. that was pretty exhaustive.

anyway, i'm gonna add you (i'm from UPV). and so many other people as well. grin.

make love. not war.

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hey, i was just wondering, where'd you get your logo? coz it looks so familiar. would u happen to be an lds?

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Can I know who this is before I answer this question?

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